[00:00:00] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Welcome to the Revenue Engine podcast. I'm your host, Rosalyn Santa Elena. And I am thrilled to bring you the most inspirational stories from revenue generators, innovators, and disruptors. Revenue leaders in sales, in marketing, and of course in operations. Together, we will unpack everything that optimizes and powers the revenue engine. Are you ready? Let's get to it.

The need for revenue operations is on the rise, but revenue operations require such a broad skillset across strategy process and technology and operations teams are still lean. So what can organizations be doing to augment and power their revenue engine?

[00:00:54] Sponsor: Today's podcast is sponsored by Outreach.io. Outreach is the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit toaccurate sales forecasting, replace manual processes with real-time guidance and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often. Traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why Outreach is the right solution at click.outreach.io/RevEngine.

[00:01:34] Rosalyn Santa Elena: In this episode of the revenue engine podcast, Patrick Hudgins, the CEO and co-founder of Delegate, shares how he and his co-founder found that companies often don't want to learn the technology to solve those problems. They just want them solved. He shares what companies are doing right. And what they're doing wrong when it comes to managing the revenue tech stack and how they can optimize their overall revenue operations. So please take a listen and learn how rev ops as a service is on the rise.

So excited to be here today with Patrick Hudgins, the CEO and co-founder of Delegate. For anyone who may not be familiar, Delegate is the modern services platform for revenue operations experts that leverages a flexible service model to deliver high quality results and outcomes. So welcome Patrick, and thank you for joining me. I am very excited to learn more about you and your journey.

[00:02:36] Patrick Hudgins: Very excited to be here. This is going to be fun.

[00:02:38] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Right. So you've held many roles in sales, leadership, and a lot of different industries before founding Delegate. Can you tell us more about your background and your career?

[00:02:49] Patrick Hudgins: Yeah. My background is in B2B C SAAS sales and sales management.

So I've worked for a number of different startups. Some that have been unsuccessful relatively, and some that have been very successful. Probably the most successful would be a company called Talkdesk where I help build the company's first SMB sales team. And that's where really where I kind of felt the pain of the, of the problem that that we address and met my co-founder Rob.

[00:03:13] Rosalyn Santa Elena: That's awesome. That's awesome. So, so let's talk about the company, you know, many times, you know, I see businesses, especially as I interview folks for the podcast, you know, I see where, you know, businesses are started when a founder, you know, tries to solve a problem. Maybe there's some pivotal moments, some aha moment.

And it sounds like, you know, you sort of saw the pain. Yeah. Desk. So can you talk a little bit more about that? How did it start? What was the original vision for the company?

[00:03:40] Patrick Hudgins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just about every SAAS company I've worked for has had a problem with rev ops and whether it's there's a lot of different ways that robots teams are built different levels of experience, as you know, you and I talked about in the, in the, in the pre-show I think it's.

I've only worked for a couple of companies that really had rev ops dialed in, and there's a couple important things about that. You've got somebody who's can handle the technology. If it's only a one person show, they can handle the technology, but they're also running the kind of insights machine, driving the insights with different leaders within the company.

And then. At the end of the day setting strategy. And it's really hard to find kind of one person right out of the gate for your startup to run all three effectively. It's just a lot, it's a lot to ask of any person. There's a lot to ask of any skill set. And so I think it goes in either row, you know, ropes, he will come from finance and they take the analytical or like strategy background from a financial perspective that they're looking to parlay or they come from.

Well perspective, which is like, you know, they're maybe they were a Salesforce admin for a number of years, and now they're kind of moving into this area or they come from sales. So most companies I've been at and I was at to us. I was a brand new sales leader as my first kind of sales leadership role.

I had 12 reps straight, straight out of the gate, which is way more reps than any new manager should ever have. And really focused on closing, closing new business and coaching reps to be more successful in their role. But talk to us was growing really quickly and I had lots of You know, lots of requests from other parts of the business for he can get the reps to sell like this.

Can you input this information? Can you, can you make sure that this is done by this stage in the sales cycle? Or can we only sell these types of deals? Those types of things, all really things that could be you know, heavily influenced by a roadmap or a technology roadmap go to market systems roadmap for, for these teams.

And at the time we were We had a hard time executing against that. I'll put it that way. And so that was the problem I was trying to solve was I needed a place to go where I talk about technology and talk about the business problems I had with somebody that was going to help me or think through some of these problems and then get a realistic expectation of, of roadmap and, and and work against that roadmap.

My co-founder was on the other side of the house. Robert ser was leading talk desks, Salesforce product. You'd let it let a couple kind of Salesforce app exchange products for SAAS companies. And he had a couple of problems. One, he was building functionality that needed kind of percent professional services work in order to be really like taken advantage of by, by our client or talk to us clients.

And then he was like, I'm a smart guy. I'm, you know I've got a master's in computer science. Why, how come the only thing I can do to control my W2 is to go drive for Uber. Why is there no way, like a sales rep? They don't like, you know, they, they, if they want to work extra hard one month, they can see that in their paycheck, the following month, you know, why is that confined to.

And so, you know, what Delegate is, is it's, it's a way to solve both of our problems where, you know, my problem, I needed a place to go to for to work against our technology roadmap. And it have a meaningful conversation about go to market systems and he wanted a way to. Be able to control his W2.

And so that's really the, the kind of primordial ooze of how our business got founded.

[00:06:59] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Got it. Got it. So, so you talked a little bit about kind of you know, helping with a lot of the different aspects of rev ops, right? As part of the vision, like how it's been a couple years now, right. You've been running this company, like how has that vision sort of evils.

Over the past few years. And, you know, as we were talking about before we actually started recording, we were talking about the pandemic and the effect and sort of the rise of rev ops. How has that vision evolved over the past years? If at all?

[00:07:25] Patrick Hudgins: At first I think we were, we had. You know, we'd taken the approach of building a software platform that would help kind of tee up rev ops projects for, for clients that was like our first iteration.

And that's, that was like, after we left Talkdesk, we started building that that was iteration one. And then we realized that people just want really great service delivered kind of, you know, It's flexible and is writing. That's what they actually want. They want, they want it solved. They don't necessarily want to learn, learn as the VP of sales or head of ops.

Doesn't always want to learn the technology. They just want it solved in a way that is somewhat predictable. I think going into the pandemic ropes was like on the rise or beginning to catch catch fire. And like you mentioned, the, you know, we got to, you know, Q2 of 2020, and everyone's plans changed all at once.

And those teams who had really good rev ops RO ops leadership were able to pivot and those who didn't realize the value of good lift bro ropes. And so, you know, we're seeing. We're seeing a tremendous amount of budget and earlier and earlier, people are investing in real ops, which is exciting, but you know, who you get in that robot's chair early is gonna, is gonna really impact going to what your systems look like you.

And I mentioned earlier, we were talking about like, you know, if you're at 5 million or 10 million and you're starting your robots journey you know, getting things set in the right way, that's going to support kind of You know, the journey to 50 million or a hundred million is hard. It's hard. And so you know, what we like to say that we're doing is, is helping people see around the corner, if you will, for what, what they can expect in the future and set systems up right from, from the beginning.

[00:09:04] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. That's like music to my ears, having joined so many different SAAS startups and coming in and sort of being that leader after, you know, at different stages when things are sort of built a certain way. And then there's a level of rebuilt, right? There's a level of building on top, but there's also a level of tearing down and rebuilding.

So what level that is, is sort of the differentiator between all the different companies.

[00:09:28] Patrick Hudgins: Yeah, and it's like, no, it's a political capital on on your part, on the part of the ops leader to go in and make those changes. So early, I mean, a VP of sales has, you know, something like, you know, eight. 12 months to really like right the ship when they start at a company like that or get it in the right direction.

So they're in the hot seat. And so, you know, you kind of revamping their internal technology is very scary from their perspective. And so that's a lot of political capital to, to, to barter. You know, if you're just coming into a role.

[00:10:01] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. Yep. Definitely. You know, I think about rev ops, you know, obviously we talk a lot about alignment, right? People process technology and data, right. And aligning that to the customer journey. It's all about building that infrastructure, right. To support that end to end journey. And a big part of that is technology. Right. As we've been talking about, you know, but tech has just. Bloated over the past, you know, three to five years.

I mean, like literally there is a tool, several tools that we can buy, right. For every single part of the funnel. And so that's made it even more challenging, right. To keep everybody aligned and keep all of that data in sync. What are some of your thoughts around how companies are, you know, managing their tech stack?

You know, what do you see as company that companies are really doing? You know, that they're doing right. And what are they doing wrong? When it comes to technology.

[00:10:49] Patrick Hudgins: Yeah, I think That's a good, that's a good question. I think, yeah, the, we, we call ourselves kind of an ad administration and optimi optimization services for go to market systems, go to market system.

I mean, obviously Salesforce is the 800 pound gorilla in the room, but it's really like every little system that needs to work effectively. If your problem is with, you know, lean data, your reps don't care, your leadership doesn't care. They just want it fixed. Right. And gosh, if there's one thing I can say, just like simplicity really early, and if you've got somebody who's seen how a larger SAAS company has worked and can come in and spend some meaningful time with you earlier on, you can set Salesforce up in a way that is fairly flexible.

If you, if you keep kind of getting multiple cooks in the kitchen, you're going to get these iterations that layer on each other, which big, which becomes more difficult. And the other thing is, is that there needs some, there needs to be like disparate systems happen really quick, especially when you're hiring.

You know, like you've got a successful sales team, it's working well, they've got a stack that's kind of working for them. And then you get a customer success team on board, and then you get a marketing team on board. Then you get a finance team on board and they're using, they begin choosing different tools to do roughly the same thing, you know, maybe.

And it's, it's funny when you start seeing different, you know, one person's using slack and the other person's using, you know, Google chat and the other person's using, you know, different. Sales engagement tools. Like somebody has sales off and somebody has groove and it's, you know, it just gets to be a lot to manage.

So the simpler, you can go in the fewer number of tools you can incorporate earlier on. You're just going to. The next person who comes along up in the right. In the right spot.

[00:12:32] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that

[00:12:34] Patrick Hudgins: I'd be interested to hear the way youanswer that question.

[00:12:37] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying about, you know, companies start to buy all these different tools, right? It's that shiny object syndrome. Right. We see something like, oh, we have, you know, some brand new tool everybody's talking about. We need. Right. They don't know what they're going to do with it, but they need it. Then, then we also see where, oh, I have a, you know, you mentioned lead routing. And so it's like, oh, I have a lead routing problem.

So I need to go buy a tool. Right. And it has nothing to do with the tool. Right. It's not your process first. Right. You don't have a clear process on how you route, how leads should be routed. And so a lot of. I see companies will buy a system thinking it's going to solve a problem. They buy the system, they pay for the licenses.

They is quote unquote implemented. But they sort of go live and then it just sits there. Right? Nobody manages it or nobody really configures it for the business. And then as the business changes, right. Especially in these earlier companies, the business inevitably is changing and nobody goes back to update the systems to support the new business process.

And then you, and then you're like, oh, You know, lead, routing's broken, the tool's not working. I need a better tool. Right. And they start to do that. And I see that quite a bit. Yeah. So as you were saying in these, just start to have all of these different tools that don't talk to each other, they're not optimized, they're truly not getting the value.

And I think that's where revenue operations really comes in. Right? Yeah. You know, having a partner like your company is coming in and really having a strategy, right. Looking at the overall technology as a strategy and thinking like, what do I need to really support my business and think about longer term also versus just what do I need today?

Then you can not only save money and save time, but you'll actually be able to integrate and have all of those systems talking to each other.

[00:14:22] Patrick Hudgins: So when we start, when we join a start working with a company that's more mature, closer to the 50 or a hundred million in error number, you start to see these technology stacks that are, that have metastasized metastasized, and you've got exactly what you said is people not, you know, they've.

Technology, but they're not using it for one reason or another, or you've got different departments, really leveraging, comedic competing technologies. And so in those instances, we have to have a conversation with the team and say, if this is important for you to really get right, you should allocate some bandwidth.

And. But we need the bandwidth from you to begin teasing these out and getting rid of some of these tools that don't need to be here. And it's, it's, it's like small projects, it's it turns into like small projects on, on our roadmap and it's, it's it's technical debt in the same way that, you know, engineers experience technical debt for product.

[00:15:15] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah, absolutely. You know, like that kind of leads me into my next question because, you know, I know you have a chance to work with many, you know, different revenue organizations. You. I see a lot of different rev ops teams, and you've probably seen kind of that OSS sizes and stages and such. Is there any advice that you would give, you know, rev ops leaders relative to, you know, how do they optimize their overall revenue operations, right.

And you think about data process technology, right. Are there maybe two or three things that you're like, Hey, these are really critical. You're really, you know, rev ops leaders really need to think about this. I think you kind of touched on maybe one or two already, but I'd love to kind of get you.

[00:15:52] Patrick Hudgins: Yeah, the way I think about it is if you're in rev ops, what you want to be doing is driving strategy for you for the business.

That's what you want to be doing. Like everything else is, is setting yourself up to be able to do that. So, and I think of it in stages, like stage one is like getting the tools and the process, getting the technology and the process down so that it's like, there's no serious fires there. People can get the reports, you know, different teams are looking at the same numbers.

You know, marketing and sales are walking into the executive meeting. Looking at the same numbers, right? That's a good indicator. The next thing you like, if, if technology is dialed in enough or, you know, you've got a strategy around technology where you can predictably make, you know, changes, you're making, you know, you're, you're, you've got a roadmap you're executing against it.

It's going well, the next thing is insights meet with. Stakeholders in other divisions, heads of finance, heads of marketing, heads of customer success. Obviously the sales leader to help them identify and read the data. In a way that's going to help them drive insights right on how they should better manage their teams.

So if you're regularly doing that, then you're the person who they go to for insights then, and you can pull it into the strategy conversation, which is kind of invite only, but you get pulled in. If you're the person who's regularly providing insights, you get you get a seat at that table, which is kind of where you want to be all, all, all along.

That's kind of how I think about this, right?

[00:17:21] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yup. Yup. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I've personally been a customer right. Of your services. Understand the value. Obviously. Now we're about to embark on another partnership. But can you tell us more maybe about that, how that on-demand model really helps support revenue teams?

[00:17:38] Patrick Hudgins: So we're very different in that, you know, kind of most firms do a sow based consulting model where they're like, okay, let's dial in a scope of work for you. Let's like do all the discovery first. Like let's build an sow, we'll agree on and get the lawyers to dial in on it. And then we'll execute on it over the course of three or six months.

And then, you know, we'll give, we'll say you hours or something like that. That's like how almost all, you know, Salesforce consulting or go to market systems consulting works. So the way that the reason that's hard is that's a waterfall. That's a waterfall ideology where you're like stacking everything up and then executing against that in a, in a silo.

Yeah. The hard part for startups or SAAS companies is that they're more agile in that their go to market teams are more agile in that they're, you know, as I mentioned, the, you know, the head of sales has, you know, 18. To, you know, or, you know, eight to 16 months or so really in the seat typically. I mean the average average tenure is really small.

So they're looking to iterate as fast as they can on their go to market model really quickly, you know, and that's, that's the speed of iteration is really important. And so they, you know, building and that's, this is why they hire externally or they hire people internally to be part of their teams is that they don't always want to commit to a road.

For six months or 12 months. Yep. They want to build on more agile basis. What's the minimum viable version of this that's going to be successful because from that point, we'll be able to better see what the next piece of functionality that we should focus on or the next, the next thing, or is that MVP good enough for where we are as a business?

And so this is why they hire internally for this role so that they have that flexibility. And so that's, that's what we aim to attack is that, that same sort of working style that you would get from a, from an internal employee.

[00:19:34] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. That flexibility is really key, right. Because a lot of times you come in and then you start to, you actually start to do the work and you realize like, okay, really, I need to lean in more here. Or maybe I don't really need that. I need this. Right. And just having that flexibility is really key. And I think it makes it really easy to work. Right. And work for us. And, you know, you were talking about how you have sort of a different approach, right. To providing incentive to your team. Would you like to speak to how, you know, sort of that what, what is that approach and then what, how that approach really helps to drive that kind of better client experience, which ultimately leads to better client retention?

[00:20:12] Patrick Hudgins: I think You know, I'm, I'm a millennial. I think most millennials now are really like ex expected to change jobs. Every couple of years, it's really common to, to change jobs. You know, we're, we're having, you know, this generation represents itself on the job market more than any generation really like in, you know, in the past, it's speeding up and in startups, especially, you know, that go through periods of hypergrowth and contraction sometimes, unfortunately people up.

Representing themselves in the job market more and there, therefore, you know, especially kind of, if you're more introverted, this is not like the ideal scenario for you to be doing. And, you know, it ends up in having, you know, lower conviction in your long-term earning potential, which leads to lower rates of home ownership, which leads to smaller families and all those types of stuff from a demographic perspective.

And So what we do you know, and I felt this I've worked for lots of different startups. What we do is you know, instead of, you know, at the beginning of that relationship, you know, you, we, you know, we, you, you come on board with us and we incentivize our our solutions engineers, the same way a sales rep is incentivized where they have a base salary and then they have an on target earnings.

And we don't, they're on target earnings. I think. We've got people making north of $200,000 a year under our model because they, and they've, they really get measured against customer satisfaction retention and overall overall client load. And from this perspective, they can work wherever they want.

They can control their W2's. They can control the types of technology companies they're working on. They can have more security in their career. And they can grow and learn on new systems. I mean, that's, that's what, you know, technical people want to do is learn more technology, get more you know, established and the technology.

And so from that perspective, they're able to earn more and learn more and, you know, be appreciated and they don't necessarily need to need to be stuck anywhere that they don't.

[00:22:10] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that. You know, with everyone sort of headed to, you know, looking at optimizing and maximizing resources, where do you, where do you see the market headed?

Right. In terms of more of these sort of as a service offerings, especially in the rev ops space.

[00:22:28] Patrick Hudgins: Well, I think also you know, we've, our little corner of the world of Silicon valley is now over there's Silicon Plains and there's their SAAS companies popping up in cornfields, you know, the secrets out, software's eating the world.

And, and, but there's a, there's a, and it's really like a huge wave of money that came into our little corner of the world. And so there's all this cash and there's all these companies, but there's not all that many experienced operators that have done this. And so what you get is kind of what you and I talked about earlier is like these hiring markets that are crazy.

And at the S at the same time, you know, we, we just went through a pandemic. You know, the question is, you know I don't think, you know, CFOs who see, you know, head counter HR as the largest, you know, human capital is the largest you know, item on their, on their expense list. They're going to say, okay, well, if you can work effectively remote from Palo Alto, from home, why can't you effectively work remote from again?

Or why not the Philippines. And so there's a, I think there's a combination. There's a conversation right now happening in tech and tech is leading the way between labor and capital. It's really interesting. And I don't think getting enough, like thought or real discussion around it, but this question of like, do I want to be an employee or do I not want to be an employee?

Do I have to be in the office or not be in the office? This is all part of a larger conversation. That's going to dictate the way we all work in the future. LinkedIn, just, just, I don't know if you notice this or saw this, but you can advertise your services on LinkedIn recently. They just launched this over the last like year or so, where you can be an independent consultant and list your list.

On LinkedIn, and this is all, all part of a, a larger conversation, a larger movement towards more independence on the part of the worker.

[00:24:24] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Got it. That's great. Thank you. Know, as I think about the revenue engine, The podcast. I always hope that others will be able to, you know, take away some tips and some advice around how to really accelerate revenue growth, right.

And power the revenue engine. From your perspective, like what are the top, you know, maybe two or three things that you think, Hey, all CEOs or revenue leaders should really be thinking about right now to help accelerate revenue growth?

[00:24:50] Patrick Hudgins: Yes. Number one is, I would say by sales, if you're a SAAS company by Salesforce, Don't go with another competing CRM because you know, at some, like for a couple reasons, one, as you bring on new individual contributors, they're more likely if they have experience in the industry, they're more likely to have worse.

In Salesforce there, instead of using your new CRM, you know, independent CRM that you bought, the other thing is you're going to hire a head of marketing. You're going to hire a head of finance. Ideally that comes from a sales that comes from a SAAS background as well. They're going to have experience working in Salesforce.

Everything else is going to be a learning curve for them. So while you kind of look at that CRM expense and say, gosh, Salesforce is expensive at the beginning, realize that you're saving costs in later. And, and if you are going to be that 50 or a hundred million dollar SAAS company, you're not going to, you're likely not going to be on those CRMs for, for the long haul.

So that's, that's like number one is like, you know, it's kinda like get out of your own head and, and like pay more earlier on one piece. The next thing is, make sure that you have a way to iterate on your numbers, because if you're coming in to a board meeting, the output of that board meeting is likely to be, Hey, we need more data or, Hey, we need to adjust these, or let's focus on these metrics.

And you're likely to adapt to that reality. So maybe it's like retention or maybe it's CAC or those types of things. So you better be sure you have a way to measure those metrics. And if you're, if you find yourself as a, as a CEO or a. UN unprepared to deliver accurate metrics like those, or, you know, customer cohort numbers or those types of things.

Make sure you're working with a team and have a heavy, heavy, not just a person who shows up once in a while, but like a regular, it put a team together. That's going to be able to iterate on this and get you the data that you need. I see this all the time where people are like, I don't, I can't give them.

My board is asking for metrics. I don't even know how to give them these metrics. I see that. 10% of our clients, something like that.

[00:27:02] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah. Yeah. The data and figuring out how to measure. And what to measure I think is really is really key. It's just, it's really tough. I think a lot of companies you come in and you're like, well, what are the high level objectives for next year?

You know, what are the right metrics to measure performance and tracking against those objectives? And then what's the right data, right. So right. Those couple of steps and then oftentimes there's gaps. Right. And every step of the way. So yeah, definitely. I like the investing early, I think, in the technology like a CRM or, you know, making sure you make that purchase and getting it set up the right way.

Right. As you were talking about earlier is make sure you get it set up the right way early on when it's easier to do versus later when your business is more complex along those lines, like, are there things that maybe you wish you had. Earlier, or maybe you might do differently if you had a chance to sort of hit the reset button and do it all over again.

[00:27:56] Patrick Hudgins: And building a company, you mean?

[00:27:57] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yes.

[00:27:58] Patrick Hudgins: I would say what I would, what I would do earlier, you know, I'm, I'm. Such a fan that like incentives drive behavior and clear expectations, build healthy relationships. Those are like my, my business and life mottoes. So I think we've done a fantastic job at building really great incentives for our, our team and our employees early on.

I think setting clear expectations. Is is a, is a piece that we could have gotten better at. And so I, as a, as a leader in like really, cause I'm a, I'm like a sit around a campfire and discuss something and tell a story that dictates kind of what, you know, the vision or the strategy that I'm looking to convey.

But, you know, in a remote environment, creating kind of independent resources that can be referenced by a third party, you know, even after a conversation has been had is is something that I'm. That I wish I would have grown into earlier. Got it.

Yep. That's helpful. Thank you. So as we wrap up, I always ask two things and I try to give these questions ahead of time.

Cause I, I w as I was mentioned to you, I don't like those kind of surprises when it comes to personal stuff. So as we, as we wrap up two things, one, what is the one thing about you that others might be surprised to learn and to what is the one thing that you, you want everyone to know about? And I've actually found that with some guests, it's the same thing.

So something that's surprised that's surprising about you and something you want people to know.

Well, you know, one thing I think people don't realize about me is that I'm like really driven. I told you, you know, Incentives drive behavior and clear expectations. Those things are unique. And I think are really important to me. I think I am driven a lot by I'm constantly thinking about how can we drive more opportunities outside of kind of major us metros into, into areas that are underserved.

And I think You know, these might be underserved urban populations, but it's also underserved rural populations, which count which account for like most of the people in the United States. So like how do we bring you know, good quality jobs to lower income areas or more rural areas to take advantage.

And so I'm, I'm really passionate about that. I think the things that Americans do best are innovate and sell really like those, those things that we're good at are like, you know, like w you know, if you look at data where over overconfident overconfident, like, you know, under we're, we're low in our other is, but you know, what we're good at is services not necessarily manufacturing.

And so. Playing to our strengths and finding more service-based, you know, service-based you know, and being able to bring more opportunities for the services economy to, you know, rural areas or something I'm like, all in for.

[00:30:52] Rosalyn Santa Elena: I love that. That's great. Thank you for sharing that. Well, good. Well, so thank you so much, Patrick, for joining me, it's been such a pleasure to chat with you.

Enjoyed our pre-show conversation, just as much as our, our recorded session, but really appreciate your time. And thank you for sharing so many great insights.

[00:31:09] Patrick Hudgins: Thanks forhaving me on, this was fun.

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