[00:00:00] Luigi: Welcome. This is the sales IQ podcast. My name is Luigi Prestinenzi, and I'm on a mission to help salespeople be the best sales professionals they can be each week. We will bring you a different message from thought leaders around the globe so we can help you master the art of selling. There's a lot that's changed in the world of selling.

You've heard me talk about this previously, that the end of the day. The concept of selling hasn't changed, but the way in which we interact with our buyers has the world of digital is playing a huge role in the buying process. And ever since the pandemic started the way in which we engage with our buyers has essentially.

Completely online. What I mean about online, we are having more and more virtual meetings with our customers and our prospects. And will it go back to some form of normality? We will meet them in a face-to-face environment. Absolutely. However, the world of virtual, the virtual interaction, the meetings via zoom teams, whichever platform that you're using, it's here to stay and there's anything in selling our ability to master the art of selling is our ability to adapt and embrace.

The learning that comes with revenue. Operations is much more than words in a job title. It's a movement that is transforming sales, marketing, and customer success teams into high-performing revenue. Drivers bring DNA is a recognized Gartner cool vendor that makes rev ops possible by driving improved operational efficiency and revenue capture from sale.

Marketing and customer success trusted by the top companies across the globe ring day night offers a complete sales engagement, conversational intelligence and revenue intelligence platform for Salesforce customers. Learn how we can transform your results@rindyandi.com. That's ring, dni.com. And this week, that's what we're talking about.

We're talking with a virtual sales trainer, an expert who spent a number of years, teaching sales professionals, how to master the art of presenting and selling in a virtual environment. Julie Hansen has been teaching sellers and sales professionals for a number of years, how to show up in a virtual environment and how to get the most out of those virtual interactions.

I think for all of us, we can get a bit fatigued when being on. And there is a skill to presenting on camera. And that's what these session is all about. That's what this podcast is all about. It's about allowing you to learn some of the tips and yes, you might've been doing it for the past 18 months, but just like anything, right?

It doesn't matter how long we, we sell how long we've been in our role. We've always got an opportunity to improve and enhance what we do. So this is a terrific episode for sellers trying to get more out of the sales process in the virtual environment. I also want to share. The book competition that we have on at the moment, if anyone who writes the cells like you podcast and sends me a photo on LinkedIn, I'm going to send you book thrive strategies to turn uncertainty to competitive advantage in is by the awesome Meredith Elliott Powell.

It's a fantastic book. It really covers the mindset required. To look at things from a different perspective, how to look at a negative and turn it into a positive and actually maximize the outcome from what some will look at from a negative perspective. So thanks for everybody who continues to give our podcast ratings, shout outs.

I love the fact that we have such an engaged audience of people. I love the fact that this podcast is having a positive impact on so many sales professionals. And I really value my listeners are tuning into, to the content that we create each and every week. So please jump online. If you liked the podcast, give it a rate, send me a photo, send me your address.

Bang. We'll get you out of book. All right. So welcome to the show, Julie. 

[00:03:56] Julie: So happy to be here, 

[00:03:57] Luigi: really excited. I think it's a great topic that we're going to be discussing today. So many sellers are still trying to adapt in the new virtual environment. And now look, I think it's kind of like a blended work environment, so it's really great to have you on to talk about.

Um, you know, virtual selling and how to best present on video. But before we get into that subject, we'd love to learn a bit more about you and how you started in the world of selling. 

[00:04:19] Julie: Uh, so I actually started in the world of buying. So I was, I was on the other side of the desk for many years and I had all these salespeople call on me and I thought, well, it looks like they're having a lot more fun than I am.

So. Uh, so I made the switch and, um, it actually was quite shocking to me, just the difference between being a buyer and a seller, right. A customer and a sales person was just, I didn't think I was gonna make it. And I'm sure my manager didn't think I was going to make it in sales either that first year.

Um, but it really forced me to, um, you know, make some changes and really deal with kind of the mindset behind going into a career where rejection is very much part of the. Dynamic right. And learning not to take it personally and, um, just, you know, keeping hopeful and just doing the best you can and then letting things go when they don't work out.

And, uh, one of the things that helped me with that was, uh, I started taking some acting classes and. That really helped me, um, you know, work on my communication skills of course, and also, um, deal with the rejection piece and, um, you know, and really, really focused on, you know, cause acting is so much about focusing on whoever you're talking to and your, your intention and your motivation and what you're trying to communicate and not so much on, you know, me and how I feel.

You know, taking my emotional temperature all the time. So, uh, it really helped me kind of get outside of myself. So I, for many years had a career, both in sales and as an actor. And so, um, kind of parlayed that into, um, my, uh, career now, which is sales, training and coaching. I use a lot of acting and improvisational techniques.

I'm really focused around those customer facing events like presentations, demos, conversations. Yeah. 

[00:06:10] Luigi: Fantastic. And do you mind me asking sort of what motivated you to move from being in that role of buying to actually move into the, to the opposite end and actually moving to sales? 

[00:06:19] Julie: Yeah. You know, besides, you know, I joke that it looked like they were having more fun.

They were going to clown, you know, they were going to lunch. They were drove nicer cars than that, but it just, I mean, it's just such a, I need more variety. Like, you know, when you work at a desk, you're there eight hours. Uh, and I'm sure it's different for other, you know, customers, um, working on one thing, you know, I just would tend to get a little bored and distracted.

And so I liked the variety, like excitement of sales and meeting a lot of new people. And, um, so I, I loved it once I got over the hump, 

[00:06:57] Luigi: some of the challenges that you first had to work through, um, you know, as you started in sales. 

[00:07:02] Julie: Well, at first it was probably, you know, getting over that. Oh, you know, calling up someone and having them not be happy to hear from you, you know, that's pretty unusual as a customer, right.

Everybody's happy to hear from you. So, uh, that was a big hurdle for me also, um, managing a lot of different deals. I remember I just, I would spend so much time like trying. Perfect my proposal or my pitch and my manager is like, you're never going to make it if you only do one of these a day. Right. So having to kind of let go of the it's gotta be perfect and, um, really just, you know, keep, keep moving and do the best he can, but you can't dedicate, you know, like, like when your customer and your one client really, you dedicate everything towards that.

Um, that's not practical and sales. 

[00:07:51] Luigi: Yeah. So it's about having, making sure that you've got enough coverage, um, in your pipeline and not focusing too much of your attention on the, on the one or two deals. Yeah, very interesting. Cause I suppose, um, that change that you made from sort of buying into selling, um, a lot of sales professionals in the past, sort of 15 to 18 months, They've had they been forced to make some changes in the way they engage with their buyers and their prospects.

So we'd love to learn a bit more from you about sort of what are some of the, you know, apart from the, the major change, which we've gone to virtual selling, but what are some of the challenges that you've helped sellers overcome these past 15 to 18 months in making that change from face-to-face sales to, to virtual sales?

[00:08:32] Julie: It's, uh, it's been quite dramatic, hasn't it? Um, you know, I recognized early on that as we. Went into this pandemic that, that people were being confronted with a challenge that I had faced in my acting career. Um, which was, how do you talk to a camera? How do you connect with people virtually? And I met through that very same thing when, uh, I was an actor and I was transitioning from stage live theater, which is where most actors start to film and television.

And they're just entirely different. And so I went into like my first on-camera audition, just doing the same thing I did on stage. And it was so awkward and I didn't know where to look and I was too loud and big and, you know, it was just awful, needless to say, I did not get the part, but, but I learned that in order to be successful, people that work in front of the camera.

I have to know certain skin stills and they're very different. And so I took on camera, um, classes to understand how to communicate effectively in this very small, you know, piece of real estate that we are in and how to connect with someone through the camera. And, um, it's a very specific skillset. And so, um, I saw people struggling with this and just kind of showing up on camera and expecting to be able to do everything.

Did before just happen to have their camera on and it's not successful. It was, you know, it was great effort in the beginning. Um, and I, I applaud that everybody, you know, got on camera and that's fantastic, but there's so much more to it. It's, you know, we're at a stage where. It's not enough just to have your camera on, right.

Uh, you have to now we're, you know, it's proved to be very unfulfilling on both sides as far as developing a relationship. Right. It's been good for existing relationships, but it's been very hard for people trying to establish a relationship because people don't have their relationship, relationship, building skills to translate it down into video.

Yeah. Uh, so that's really where I've been focused this last year. Is how do we, how do we communicate those things that we've honed over many years being in person of, you know, expressing empathy and, and credibility and, uh, connecting with people. How do we hone that down into this little square of space and, and make sure that we're communicating that in a way that the camera and that's the customer reads it.

[00:11:07] Luigi: Yeah. That's such interesting. You bring up some really interesting. I'd love to dive deep into that. I'm a bit more if that's okay. So when you think about it, when you're meeting somebody face-to-face, um, all the things that I learned when I first started in my sales career was, you know, listen to tone pitch speed.

The way they sit, you can mirror them. You can kind of help build that rapport, obviously disk, um, treating others the way they want to be treated, but obviously on camera it's it's it changes the dynamic of the relationship. So what are some strategies that sellers can use? To build that rapport and empathy and trust on camera.

Um, and through a screen versus face to face. 

[00:11:44] Julie: Um, yes, there's, there's a lot of them and I'll, I'll, I'll focus on just some things that I think are really foundational. And, and the first thing is this, uh, like you said, we used to be able to rely on being able to read someone. Um, you know, very clearly in person.

And I think the first thing to remember is that people behave very differently in front of a screen. And if you're expecting to get those same kind of cues, you'd be really disappointed because most people, and I don't know if you've noticed this, but most people get in front of a screen and we become very passive observers.

Right. That's just how we're trained. And when we are, especially if we're expecting, you know, a pitch or a presentation, And, um, most people don't have the same sense of obligation to show up and look engaged or, um, connected. And so they have what I call resting business face. Right. It's just very bland.

It's very, uh, you know, non unreadable, right. And many salespeople. If you take that to heart, Oh, my gosh, they're bored. They're disinterested. And we start to speed up or we raised them as pauses. Uh, we, we interpreted in a way that is not necessarily the fact. So if you don't understand, um, you know, onscreen behavior, you can really trip yourself up and make a lot of mistakes that, that don't serve you.

Right. And so understanding that is vital and then understanding. You know, the things that really contribute to relationship that are are missing and that people are not doing a great job of on video are, um, things like building trust. Like that's very important in sales, right. And very important in any relationship.

And one of the ways that we establish trust or we learn to trust someone or feel like we can trust them is through eye contact. Yep. You're not making eye contact. If you're not looking at your camera. And I, I know people hear this, they're like, yeah. Yeah. And then they continue to look at their screen.

They look at the person's image and while they, they feel like they're connected because I can look at your picture and I can go, hi, I'm really listening to him. And I'm connecting to him. Your experience is totally. Um, it just, it doesn't matter why you're not looking at the camera, but it feels to the other person.

Like you're not really, you know, you're not building a relationship you're disconnected. So it's, it's absolutely vital. It's also the same, uh, you know, another important relationship skill is, um, being a good listener. Well, most of the time when someone's listening to you, they are looking at you, right. If you, if you and I were in person and you were telling me, you know, a big problem that you were having a big challenge and I was looking at your shoes the whole time, you'd be like, huh, I wonder if she's all that interested.

Right? Yeah. So all these little signals that we used to send are not being sent and we think it's okay and it's not okay. Right. Um, so it's important to understand the consequences of. Of not using the camera or working with the environment that we have. Yeah. 

[00:15:07] Luigi: And I think one of the things that I've found to be, to be a bit, a bit of a challenge, um, myself is, and I had it yesterday.

I had to, had to present to a couple of key stakeholders on a project that we'd been discussing for a while. Um, and there was some new stakeholders that had came into the sales process. Now they didn't have the. So, and I think this is a bit of a challenge because usually, you know, when you get to present to a group of people in a face-to-face environment, you can kind of see them.

You can, you can see their reaction. Um, and I suppose what I found challenging was because I couldn't see them and I couldn't hear them. I didn't know whether my message was getting across. And, um, I was actually an, I could see myself. Um, and that was, it was, it was distracting me that I could see myself talking.

And not see them. Um, so is this, and I, I look, I know this has happened to me a couple of times and I know the way it makes me feel. So what can sales professionals do when they find themselves in that position where they're there at that really pointy end new stakeholders come in, or it could be the stakeholder for the first time.

They're trying to engage with somebody they're trying to present something, but they can't see or hear, 

[00:16:20] Julie: do to work through that emotion. Yes. Oh, that's such a, I won't say great problem. No, it's a very common problem. Right. And I'm so, so I'm to tell you just one thing you can do, first of all. Hide your image.

You do not need to be looking at yourself when you're on camera. All that's going to do. You're never going to see anything you like, all it's going to do is like take you out of the moment and, um, rattle you. Um, but I'll tell you and what I've heard and what I've experienced somewhat myself also is that customers are.

Turning their video off more often now. And a lot of us, because in the beginning we were all like, sure, let's connect and we want it to really make that happen. And now there's a lot of studies out on, you know, zoom, fatigue, and people are misreading, misinterpreting those results to say, well, I shouldn't be on camera.

And it's like, well, first of all, if you're in sales, you should be on camera because it's vital for the other person, but you should certainly pick and choose your moments. Um, but that being said, Talking to someone you can't see talking to the camera when no one else is on camera. I mean, this is close to acting as most people are going to get.

Right. It is very much what an actor does when they are the only one, you know, they're, they're in a shot with, they're supposed to be talking to another actor that actor isn't even on the set that day and they're talking to the camera. Right. And they have to make it as real and they have to see that other person and they have to imagine those reactions it's much like that.

And what I would say, it's it. It's in your best interest to imagine that your message is landing. Right. Imagine they're there. Imagine the person nodding, if you said something, you know, interesting or, you know, tilt their head or all those little nonverbal signals we used to get, they're still there. You just can't see them.

And when people in the absence of those, we assume the worst, right? Like you said, that's where we go. It's like, oh my God. There's just, there's no evidence that that's the case. Right. And it doesn't bring out the best in you. It brings out the worst and most people to S to go down that path. So other than, you know, trying to engage them verbally and interact with them.

And there's a number of techniques that are, you know, helpful with that. You have to go on good faith because it will bring the best out in you. And you have to take those pauses where you think someone would naturally. Huh, you know, that was interesting. And not assume they're going, oh, is this ever going to end?

Right. Yeah, because that will cause you to race through it. And, um, just, you know, just cause a lot of anxiety that's unneeded. Cause they're just, you know, they're not any different because they can't see you. Right. Um, you know, if something is interesting, you know, if something is humorous and you can imagine them smiling.

And you have to develop some faith in that, or, or you're going to just raise through. Presentations and be a nervous 

[00:19:21] Luigi: wreck. Yeah, because I think what I found is that, you know, some of the challenges that I experienced and I was fortunate that pre pandemic, I was already doing zoom and virtual instructor led training sessions as well.

Um, so I was kind of a bit used to it, but I think some of the challenges that I experienced when I went completely. Um, you know, looking at a camera eight hours a day. Um, I don't think it's necessarily about for me is human fatigue. It's just, I'm not kind of moving around usually during the day you're walking around and you kind of getting a bit of exercise, but I think since this whole pandemics kicked in, I'm getting more fatigued by sitting in the same bloody chair for eight hours a day, sometimes longer.

Um, but I wonder because I think some of the challenges that I sort of faced and I'd love to hear your opinion on this. Um, it's not the challenges. The fact that I'm not getting a response, it's my challenge that I'm having with the camera or that I'm having talking to the camera without seeing them.

And then that's kind of impacting the way that I feel. So you made some really good points about, you know, thinking about what happens next. When we talk to people, what happens is natural pauses. They're smiling, they're nodding, they're acknowledging, and we need to do the same. Um, what are some other tips and strategies that you can give sellers who still might be finding it difficult to create that level of presence?

Right? Because I think presence in selling, whether you're selling online. On the phone or face to face is a very important, um, attribute to have. Um, so if people are struggling to have that presence on camera, what can they do to create that presence and have more impact in the conversations they're having virtually 

[00:20:58] Julie: that, uh, that virtual presence is, is so important.

I mean, we don't have the energy that's being transferred person to person. And so. Uh, we have to bring more energy to virtual calls than we do to in-person calls. And part of that is because, uh, the camera takes off, uh, you know, a certain percentage of your energy. Uh, it, it really does because it flattens everything out.

And, um, you know, you've probably heard the camera puts on 10 pounds, got a lot of people, but it takes up about a third of your energy. So if you're already kind of. You know, relaxed and comfy and, you know, that can really read is very, you know, uninterested and that, that may not be the case. So it's really important to, um, to keep that energy up.

And like you said, it's hard when you're sitting every day. So I always recommend doing, you know, a lot of physical warmups and trying to take some time in between each call to raise that energy because you can't afford to. Um, you know, show up at that same level that you, you know, sit and watch Netflix with because that's not going to appear interested, um, to your audience.

Um, so that, that energy piece is really important and, you know, energy is also tied to how passionate we feel about something. And I think, and I think when you start rushing from call to call to call, we can just associate from. That particular customer's challenge or how we can help them. And I think it's really important to just, um, you know, in a mindset way, go through before each colleague, what, you know, what's at stake for this person, you know, how, how can I really help them?

Why does it matter? Um, because that will bring your energy up too, as opposed to just kind of going through, you know, one sales call after the next, but really is a combination of, you know, physical and mental preparation. And sometimes some days that's easier than others. Right. 

[00:22:59] Luigi: I think what you share is really important because I don't think it's just necessarily about virtual.

I think some of those challenges that sellers have had in a face-to-face environment where they have. Preparing for meetings or they weren't doing enough research on a prospect or understanding the problems and challenges that they could be experiencing. Um, if you bring those same kind of behaviors into virtual, it only amplifies it.

Right. Because you've got, you've got, you've now got a smaller window. Um, you've got, you've got a smaller window of time. People are, they've got less attention now because there's so many other things going on. And so that will pick up on that quite early in that if you're rushing from meeting to meeting or, and I've look, I'm guilty of it myself, right?

Because of the fact that we are in a virtual environment, I don't have drive time or train time. Right. I can do a back-to-back and I could do a relatively. But you're right. Our ability to switch that from that mindset perspective and really think, and give our undivided attention to prospects, um, can be challenging.

So you've just touched upon it. Um, in order to be successful virtually it's getting the right mindset, B being prepared, having a thought about what's important for them. Why should they care, et cetera. Um, so I think this has been great and how to bring some of that energy. Um, what are some other things.

I think this has been something that's been, I've heard. Um, should, should we stand when we're presenting? Should we sit? I mean, is there some best practice tips that you can give sellers on, on getting the most out of these sessions? Sure. 

[00:24:35] Julie: Um, and you know, it's certainly a, a choice and it's what, what works for you.

But, but I will, I will say that it's very difficult for most people to stand and to stay as still, as you need to be. On video. Um, and so most of the time when I see people standing there, again, like you said, the camera magnifies everything, right? So if you're doing some weight shifting, even in your, you know, even as you're seated, if you're crossing and uncrossing your legs, or do it a little swivel, it's, it's, you know, that's nine, 10, so your customer's screen.

Right. So they see it that, you know, there's no hiding on. No hiding. So, um, all those things are seen and if you're doing just the, you know, the tiniest bit of movement or, you know, the thing about standing is it has to be practiced. It's it's, uh, it's more difficult. Yeah. Um, to do that because the tendency is, and this, I see people doing this where they're seated or standing, when you feel like you want to connect with somebody, you start to lean forward, right.

Or you start to move towards the camera and look at that, that looks very invasive and a little bit aggressive. Right. And also you don't have really anywhere to go. So if you take a step towards the camera, then you find, oh gosh, I can't go any farther. And then you have to take a step back and then you're doing this awkward two-step cha-cha.

That you know, is just distracting for whatever it is you're trying to say. So it's a very practice skill to, to stand, you know, balanced, you know, instill from, you know, your torso down and have all that, all your emotion, all your. Uh, activity is in, you know, in the frame and that's what you want all the energy to go.

You don't want it to be dispersed in your, you know, in the bottom half of your body. 

[00:26:26] Luigi: Yeah. And I'm guilty of that. I move around a lot. I move around when I'm not talking to people, I'm kind of a, I've got a whole heap of energy. Um, and so I find that, you know, sometimes when I'm on call.

[00:26:40] Julie: You know, especially like with your gestures, like being, you know, you don't want to, I hear this bad advice about, well don't gesture, you know, don't well, we don't want to do as a lot of big, fast, vague movements. You want to be very specific and purposeful. And if you, if you focus your energy and channel it into slowing it down and being specific, um, it's much more impactful than, you know, this kind of, um, flailing around that, you know, could mean.

Saying how big something is or in flooding a squat, I try to get us fly, you know, so it's, it's very specific on camera. Less is more 

[00:27:17] Luigi: at one thing. One thing I'm really keen to talk to you about as well is, um, I do a few core calibration sessions for sales professionals. You know, we review calls, whether they're, whether they're voice recorded or chorus or on a platform that did the jewels.

Right. I'm meeting with you, but I'm looking at my second screen. And you, as the prospect is seeing the side of my head for the duration of the call. No. Yes, no, 

[00:27:42] Julie: no. Uh, it's a big no-no. So wherever you're going, wherever you need to spend your focus, that's where your camera should be. Right. If you need to look at that screen, then have your camera there.

Don't try and split the difference by putting it in between two screens or you're just going to be showing them both sides of your face. Um, yeah, I mean, like I said, can't, you know, there's no hiding, right? You, you look away, it's instantly, you've instantly broken that connection with me. Um, and I don't know if you're looking at notes or someone walked into your room, you know, 

[00:28:15] Luigi: because I tend to, I sound a bit old school, but, um, I try not to type when I have meetings and I write, I have my pad and they can see that I'm writing.

Um, and. Is that a, because obviously when we're selling, right, we're asking them questions. It's important for us to take notes. Um, is that okay to do that in a, in a faced, in a virtual environment when they possibly can't see the pad, um, to actually be taking notes? I 

[00:28:42] Julie: mean, absolutely. I think, uh, you know, we're not trying to be, you know, uh, On camera pitchmen or something, but, you know, but, uh, we want to maintain that connection as much as possible, but you also need to know that your customer doesn't know what you're doing if it's not in the camera, if it's not in the frame.

So if you are taking notes, I would say, you know, that's great. I just want to write that down cause I, for sure don't want to forget that. Or if I need to check my notes, I'd say, you know, it's a good question. I just want to check my notes to make sure I get this right. Check my notes. Come back to the camera.

Deliver it. Uh, that way. So there's a process that, that, you know, people work on camera used to work with notes and, um, you know, scripts and that kind of thing. That, that makes it much more conversational. Doesn't, you know, you can't, it's not that you can't ever look away, but, um, you know, if you let your audience know what you're doing, um, you know, like you, if they can see your pencil or you say, Hey, I'm gonna text him.

You know, when you practice a little bit, being able to, you know, I can write somewhat while I'm looking at the camera. It's not always perfectly readable, but you know, you have to. 

[00:29:52] Luigi: Yeah, fantastic. Look, I've taken a lot away from this conversation today for myself. Um, I think, you know, it's making me reflect.

Certain situations that I find myself on camera and what I possibly could do differently to create a better experience for the other person that's on the, on, on, on screen. So I think this has been fantastic, um, for our listeners, um, who are looking to maybe develop their skills further in this, in this space.

I know. You've got some great content, but where can they find more about you and engage with your 

[00:30:21] Julie: content? Sure. You can find me@juliehanson.live and, uh, I'll also have a, I have a new book out called, uh, look me in the eye using video to build relationships with customers, partners, and teams. So you can go to my website, you anson.live or Amazon for that.

And, um, yeah, and I've got lots of videos on there and blog posts on tips, you know, about everything that we've talked about and more so, um, That's all those questions that, that people are asking, like, how do I people interact? Should I have a virtual background? Should I have a natural background? Do I look at the other screen?

You know, I tried to answer all of those in the, in the book because I've been working with salespeople over the past year, um, on just those things. Um, I think that's going to be a helpful 

[00:31:09] Luigi: resource. Fantastic. Well, we'll make sure we put them in the show notes so that, um, our listeners can get access to that.

We'll also put your LinkedIn handle because you do put a lot of great tips, um, on what sellers can do to create more engagement on video. So look, Julie, I want to thank you for coming on the sales IQ podcast. Um, I've definitely benefited from a lot of your content and, uh, really appreciate you sharing some thoughts to help sellers be the best they can be on camera.

So thanks for, uh, being a guest on our podcast.

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