[00:00:00] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Welcome to the Revenue Engine podcast. I'm your host, Rosalyn Santa Elena. And I am thrilled to bring you the most inspirational stories from revenue, generators, innovators, and disruptors revenue leaders in sales, in marketing. And of course in operations. Together, we will unpack everything that optimizes and powers the revenue engine. Are you ready? Let's get to it.

What does being authentic, positive persuasion and intangibles have to do with sales? These are steps in the journey to transform from order taker to quota breaker.

[00:00:49] Sponsor: Today's podcast is sponsored by Outreach.io. Outreach is the first and only engagement and intelligence platform built by revenue innovators, for revenue innovators. Outreach allows you to commit to accurate sales forecasting, replace manual processes with real time guidance, and unlock actionable customer intelligence that guides you and your team to win more often. Traditional tools don't work in a hybrid sales world. Find out why Outreach is the right solution at click.outreach.io/revengine

[00:01:28] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Jason Cutter, the CEO and founder of Cutter Consulting Group is leading the charge to help sellers move from being that pushy salesperson that everyone avoids to the wise guide, capable of enabling and helping buyers using a human to human approach. Jason has an incredible story to share from studying Marine biology, where he was tagging his sharks to a mission command.

To an author, speaker trainer, and so much more. So please take a listen and find out what the sales success, iceberg and authentic persuasion have to do with becoming that winning sales person, the quota breaker.

So super excited to be here today with Jason Cutter, the CEO and founder of Cutter Consulting Group. Cutter Consulting Group specializes in transforming sales operations, into scalable revenue machines that produce predictable results. And Jason's also an author, a speaker, a trainer, a podcast host, and so, so much more. So welcome Jason. and I thank you so much for joining me. I'm super excited to unpack your story.

[00:02:41] Jason Cutter: Thanks for having me Rosalyn and I always love the opportunity to help sales and sales operations in any way that I can.

[00:02:49] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Okay. I love that. So let's talk a little bit about your career journey, your backstory, you know, prior to your consulting company, and then prior to your Authentic Persuasion book . The eyes can't see, but you're wearing your shirt, which is awesome.

I love that story. That's really cool. So before your sales career, you actually studied Marine biology. And I cited that you were also a mission commander. So can you tell us more about your backstory and your journey?

[00:03:13] Jason Cutter: So I'll give the short or version of it. So yeah, my bachelor's degree is in Marine biology. I went to UC Santa Cruz.

I tagged sharks for years in and around that area did a lot of shark research. That was kind of the culmination, as I joke about when I. You know, speak and do training and companies bring me in is that because of my childhood and my upbringing, I literally chose sharks instead of people as a safer, better way to go with a career people were way more dangerous to me.

The growing up, , people don't believe it, but I was a shy, awkward, bullied, late bloomer. I'm still a late bloomer. I'm still an only child. And my, I have two loving, wonderful parents. They're still together to this day. My mom was a banker and finance manager before she retired. My dad was an engineer and program director before he retired.

And my mom hated salespeople. She likes people who like sell in the right way, but she hates pure self-centered salespeople that use gross tactics. And so I was given that as a, as a, as a feeling such that I didn't want to deal with people. In fact, when I got a job at a restaurant, I didn't even want to wait tables, cause I didn't want to deal with hungry people.

I was like, I'll bust tables, but I don't want to deal with, I don't want to talk to anybody. That was my frame of mind. Marine biology didn't work out. You needed more schooling. I didn't know if I wanted to go that route. I ended up at Microsoft for a couple of years. Doing tech support realized I don't like computers, but I was good with people and problem solving.

Got my first sales job when I was 27 in the mortgage business with the caveat that it was 2002. So it was the height of the real estate boom or the real estate boom was taking off. And so it was pure order taking, like it didn't take any skill to have to sell people. Buying a house like everyone wanted it.

And it wasn't until years later, when I learned to sell, got into sales, sales, leadership I didn't want to, but then I was pushed into management which we can talk about or not. And then I even ran away from sales and sales leadership at one time. I worked for a private company as a civilian contractor for the military, ended up deployed overseas as a mission commander in some dirty nasty places with my Marine biology degree, then then realized what I really wanted to do, which was consulting and went to school, got my MBA online and that led to this.

[00:05:27] Rosalyn Santa Elena: That's awesome. Well, that's that's incredible backstory. That is a lot. And we could definitely do multiple. We should do a series of podcasts to break all of that down for sure. So let's fast forward a little bit then to cut our consulting group and which I think you found about three years ago.

So what led you, you kind of, you started talking a little bit about consulting, but what led you to sort of starting your own company? What was the original vision, I guess, for the business?

[00:05:53] Jason Cutter: And this is something , I'm always learning things about myself and seeing things in a new light, especially the more conversations I have.

I realized I am actually more of a operation minded person than a sales minded person. Meaning I look at a sales team and I see the operations, the systems, the processes. How do you scale it? Right. If I add X amount of marketing and hire X number of reps, I should. X plus results. And then I can just scale and I should get more and more.

Right. And so I look at it like that versus a sales minded person, which says, just let me do whatever I want. Don't give me any rules or any structure, just give me a phone and I'll close some deals and get out of my way. Right. That kind of salesperson. When they get into leadership, they think, let me just hire as many people as possible.

And if they're good at it, they'll figure it out. But I don't. Like give them structure, scripts, their directory dirtiest word in, in their mind. So for me, I'm an operations guy and I realized that. And what I love the most, at one point I had a role of where I was helping recruit outside affiliate offices, almost franchises.

And then I was going to their offices to do training, to help fix what wasn't working, what they weren't doing. Right. That gave them instructions to do. And I absolutely loved. For the transformation, like fixing them and training them and being there in person. And so I realized that, which is the culmination of or triggered the reason why I went to get my MBA so I could learn more of the business side and all of that.

And I realized that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to help companies fix. Transform their sales operation. And then once it's up and running, go help others instead of just being in one place, because once things are up and running and going smooth, it's not as fun for me. I like to fix things, not just, you know, run them.

And so that led to it and for a brief period of time for a few years, I a friend of mine who I knew he hired me, basically had me come. And I was an internal consultant where I was just fixing and building and we were doing different things. And then when that ended. I was like, okay, now's the time to go out on my own.

[00:07:59] Rosalyn Santa Elena: That's awesome. That's awesome. I always talk about either operational people or they're not right. There's a certain mindset and a certain way that you approach things. You think about things. And we almost like always talk about how we always ran to the chaos. Right. We like to, we like to fix problems.

We like to build things from scratch. So we kind of make sense of the chaos. That's amazing. I love that. So let's talk about your business because you use these principles of the sales success iceberg, and the authentic persuasion that we've talked about. So maybe we could talk about sales success iceberg first.

So what is this iceberg and how does it apply to success in sales?

[00:08:36] Jason Cutter: Yeah. So I think when we look at sales, it's really easy for someone to see a sale that happens. And the high-fiving, the ringing, the bell, or the gong that putting it up on the white board or it's in the gamification platform and there's cheering and there's celebration and maybe a happy hour because somebody closed the deal, right.

Depending on the volume. And that's great. A lot of people, again, going back to pure salespeople where it's like they're selling and they can't always tell you when the next sale is going to happen, how it's going to happen, why it even happened, they just do it. And it just happens for me again, if we're talking about a sales team, whether it's a call center with 500 people or a call center with 10 people or any kind of sales team, the sale to me is what you see above the surface of the wall.

If we use the iceberg analogy, right? And most people know that what you see in the iceberg above the water is five to 10%, right? That closed deal is one part of it. If you want to replicate that, if you want that to happen consistently and predictably, then you have to make sure that you're aware of the rest of the iceberg and the parts that go into.

Which is everything else below the surface. And again, most people only see by the servants a wow, you close the deal. That's great. It's like, how did that happen? I don't know, but there's an iceberg, right? And so what I focus on and my sales success iceberg is a image I use. And then it's a roadmap when working with companies where there's 24 points underneath the surface that you have to focus on at some level, some systems and processes in so that you have them covered.

And some of them. Company culture, making sure you have mission, vision and core values. Some of them are recruiting HR lead generation CRM technology. You know, some things that everyone's aware of, but if you're not accounting for all of those and working on improving them all the time, then what happens is your, what I say is you're just playing sales, right?

Like you're, you're out there playing pickup basketball, hoping you're gonna win. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't..

[00:10:46] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Got it. I love that. So 24 points below the iceberg, we could even do a whole series on that and dive into that kind of fit. So let's talk about authentic persuasion. I mean, it's on your shirt, it's the name of your sales training course that you teach.

And it's also the name of the book. So maybe we start with the book, right. Can you tell me a little bit, you know, tell us a little bit about the book. We'd love to really understand, you know, how the book came about, what the premise was behind the book and probably most importantly, how can it. Folks be more successful in sales.

[00:11:14] Jason Cutter: Yeah. So the title of the book is selling with authentic persuasion, transformed from order taker, to quota breaker, and many people. When I tell them that they're like, wow, I love the subtitle. More like you could have made that the title and it's, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a coin toss for some people.

For me, it was the culmination of the fact that a. Want to be in sales or deal with people early on in life. I fell into it. I realized I was pretty good at it, but in a different way I also realized that I have received zero minutes. Of formal sales training at any company I've worked at everything I I know is self-taught from books, podcasts, videos, training, getting a copy of David Sandler's sales training that somebody made a copy for me in a three ring binder at one point.

And I studied that thing and read through that and tried to figure it out. And so what I do in sales is a result of just figuring it out in a way that's authentic to me. But also is about getting results. And then over the years of running so many sales teams call centers in the U S outside the U S various countries, seeing what works with consumers, not just works with salespeople who want.

Make a commission or want to close deals today, but actually works with buyers in any industry. And then also for the company's benefit. So it's actually good sales that you would actually want. That's where it came from. And what I realized was there's a lot of people who started like me that were order takers and an order taker is not a derogatory term, but it's a condition of your selling effectiveness as I like to put it, which means you're just taking orders.

You're not actively moving people for. Usually it's one we caused by one of two things. One is you were a customer before you went into sales, you experienced some gross salesperson who used manipulation and pressure. You didn't like that. And or you watched a movie like boiler room of Wolf of wall street.

And you said, I don't like. Then you ended up in sales and said, I promised never to do that to somebody else because of the golden rule. And I don't want to be a hypocrite and I would never do that to somebody else because it feels gross. And then you combine that with the second reason. It's usually not enough training or understanding of mindset and how to be effective.

Moving someone forward in a way that's more effective than the classic strategies and you get an order taker and it's usually because they care. They want to help people. They want to be successful. They just don't want to cross the line into what doesn't feel right now. What I found is that both of those terms are important.

There's a lot of people who are very authentic and about. But then they don't get any results because they're leaning too far on that and hoping that's enough to sell deals for them. Right. Then there's other people who focus only on the persuasion and aren't very authentic and we've all experienced those people in sales.

And so it's really that combination. And I wrote this book to help people have that framework. Understanding what's authentic for you and what it takes to be successful in sales for you. And then a framework for persuading that then can be applied to any industry. And if you're in sales and you're struggling with sales, getting results consistently, you have good times and bad times and you don't know why, or you've been in sales for a while and you need a reminder.

I have people on all ends of the spectrum that read the book and are like, that was great. This is what I think. Was what I was doing. Right. And this is confirming it. Thank you for showing me that I don't have to, you know, use, use pushy closing tactics to trick people into buying.

[00:14:53] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Got it. Got it. So let's talk a little bit about the course, because in your course there's modules, right around being authentic, positive persuasion, and then there's this bucket called intangibles, right?

Which seems to take us on this journey right through the different steps to really transform the type of seller that a person is. Is that right? Or like, what is the course about and how do you see this transformation or journey of a salesperson?

[00:15:19] Jason Cutter: Yeah, so the course is really to help people if they are good at online courses, because not everyone is, is go through the book, but in more detail and more of that roadmap to really apply it.

The big thing for me is to not just let, and I even wrote this in the intro is don't let don't buy my book. Or read my, go get my book. If you're not going to actually use it. Right. I actually have a bunch of things in the first chapter, which is like, here's the reasons why not to buy it, right. Just like I do in sale.

Like, I want it to be a good fit. I want you to be a customer of life for life. I want you to be happy. But literally don't just let it be a shelf help book where you buy it, you read it, you put it on the shelf and then you never use it. Right. I want people to transform. I don't want to just sell books and courses.

I want people to. Be effective. I want them to succeed. And then regarding the intangibles, I think that's really important because the intangibles, especially if you look at it from sports, right, I'm a big NBA fan basketball fan. The intangibles are the things that don't show up on the. But make the difference in winning rights, the hustle plays, who dives for the basketball and who does this.

And who's like more aggressive. Those don't show up, but they're important if you're in sales, sales is so hard. One of the reasons it's so hard is you're up against a very professional opponent and I don't know. The buyer, I don't mean like their strategies. I mean that survival primal part in everyone's brain that is afraid of danger and change and wants to keep them safe.

You're up against thousands, hundreds of thousands of years of survival mechanisms that don't want. You to change them. And so it's the intangibles that will sway things into your favor when helping someone get unstuck and moving forward.

[00:17:04] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Got it. Got it. So talking about sales and you kinda touched on this a little bit around, you know, Well know that selling is always been one of the toughest roles.

Right. And I think with buyers, right, being, being, you know, people like us being more informed of demanding right. Selling is getting really difficult. And that's where I think sales, coaching, training, you know, enablements or this mindset is no longer just sort of a nice to have. Right. It's certainly a must, must, must have.

And you'd probably get a chance to talk to and work with a lot of different organizations. So. What do you see revenue leaders really doing right when it comes to sort of the sales training and sales coaching, and what do you see them doing wrong?

[00:17:46] Jason Cutter: So I think really it's the biggest thing is, like you said, is that buyers are different and just to kind of preface this real quick. A lot of people are very focused on what they sell in their industry and the category they fall under, whether they're B to C they're B to B they're over the phone, they're door to door, like in-person, whatever that might be. It's all the same. Right? And people say, well, B2B is so much different and so much harder.

And so like it's all the same. And the reason why is no matter what you're dealing with a human it's, not B to C or B to B it's H. Right. And if you're doing enterprise level sales, you're dealing with a human who has a job and they still have concerns and fears and goals and hopes. It's, it's the same fundamentals, right.

Which is why when I train companies, It, it matters what they're selling, but at the basic level, it doesn't matter. So with that being said, what I see the revenue leaders and the sales trainers and the people who are focused on what is working more effective is to stop doing what sales has always done.

Say. Classic sales is about building some rapport schmoozing with people, reading them, mirroring them, using some NLP, using some tricks, and then talking about themselves, how amazing they are trying to build trust around their logos, their stats, their facts, their features, the benefits, right? It's all about features and benefits.

Don't sell this, do this, like talk about this. And the classic model is to just do all of that. And if you throw enough stuff at somebody at a potential buyer, They'll trust you. And if they like it, they're going to buy to me a that doesn't work. And B that almost makes you an order taker because you're just throwing a bunch of stuff out there, hoping that they're going to bite on it.

And if they don't, that's when you battle them over objections and you go hard at them and you offer them discounts at the end of the quarter, and you try to bribe them, which is a type of manipulation, and you're doing all these things. And so. The ones that aren't doing it correctly are still playing that classic model.

Thinking that if I'm going to do a demo or a conversation, it's mostly about me. Or if I even ask you questions, I don't care what you say, because I'm going to go back to me because I know I'm amazing. And I think everyone should want. Right. And while that might be true, you need a different approach. And so the ones that are doing it right in my opinion, are adapting to two things.

One is the fact that consumers have all the information and knowledge. And if we were on video, you would see holding up my phone. Cause I love doing this, not having it near me, but with the 24 hours a day, most people now in the country, maybe on the plane, Have all the world's information within their arms reach, even while they're sleeping, which everyone knows you shouldn't, but it's still there within arms reach and you will leave the house without your wallet or purse.

You might leave the house with Docker cheese. You'll never leave without your phone. Right. And so the, the good organizations realize that people aren't seeking knowledge. They're not seeking information buyers at any level have researched it. You, your company. Your product, your service, whatever it is, you have to assume that's the case.

Even if they don't, what they're looking for is wisdom. They're looking for a guide to help them to make the safe and best. Not knowledge, information, facts, features, benefits, figures that's stuff is important. That's stuff comes secondary. First thing, they want to know that you can help them and how you can help them, which means you have to make it about them, not about yourself, which is completely different.

[00:21:28] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yeah, but all of that resonates with me so much. I think about, you know, I obviously in my role support sales and support go to market. So I see kind of this side of the house, but I'm on the recipient end, right? The receiving end of tons of outreach. Right. For all different kinds of technology. And it is about that.

Right. Because we are much more informed. We have. At our fingertips of all this information, we can talk to our communities, talk to our peers, learn about, you know, learn about technology through all these different avenues. So it is looking for is sort of that wisdom, that thought leadership, right? That guidance is sort of that partnership to be able to help us versus information or knowledge as she's as you shared.

Know, with this increasing need for sales, coaching, sales training. What do you see in terms of some market? Like where do you see, you know, sales training and coaching going in the next, maybe 12 months or even the next 24 to 36 months?

[00:22:23] Jason Cutter: It's two parts. One is what we were just talking about, where it's shifting sellers to understanding more about what the other person wants or needs and what they're really looking for, which is what I do a lot of training when companies hire me is talking about what it is that they really want.

So you know, more of the wisdom, more of the guidance than anything else. And so that is a huge part is shifting that paradigm for salespeople. Almost shifting them more like consultative sales instead of just pure, like I have this info and I'm just going to dump it on you. So that's a part of it. I think the other big thing is realizing that no matter what you sell, no matter the age, no matter the demographic, no matter the generation, it doesn't matter.

Most people don't want to. Talk to you on the phone when you call them, most people might not want to do emails when you want them to consumers. Again, buyers accompanies consumers in their living room. They now at scale are expecting you to meet them where they want to be met in a way that they want to be spoken with or communicated with.

Right. That being said, I don't think the phone is dead. I don't think the usage of phone to close deals is dead because I think it's actually really important because people need that wisdom and that guidance, right. They need the help. However, just putting a list of numbers into a dialer and dialing on it and hoping someone answers or, you know, someone fills out a form and you immediately call them.

That's great. But then you call them three hours later and you call them tomorrow and then you just give up because your reps are lazy or they moved on. That's not going to work either. Omni-channel email chat, SMS leading to a phone call, not trying to sell via SMS, not trying to sell via chat. Like if you have anything of a considered purchase, don't try to sell via email because it's never going to work, move them towards a phone call when they're ready and then make sure you have the operations to support that at scale.

So your. Really what you want them to do is focus on the one thing you need them for, which is conversations, phone calls, right. And everything else should be supporting.

[00:24:37] Rosalyn Santa Elena: That's great advice. That's really great advice. I love that. As I think about the revenue engine, right, this podcast, I'm always hoping others will be able to learn right.

How to accelerate revenue growth and power, that revenue engine. So I think you've shared a lot of really great insight already and some good tips and get advice. And good sort of a freak. I'm anxious to get your book and read through it and learn because I definitely think everything that you're saying really resonates with me and maybe it's my operations hat on.

Maybe it's just having worked with sales so much. Maybe it's having bought so much technology awesome being on that receiving end all of the above. But what I'd love to learn is like, you know, from your perspective, like if there are the top. Maybe two or three things that you think all revenue leaders should be thinking about today to really drive revenue growth.

What are those things?

[00:25:22] Jason Cutter: I think one of the biggest things is what are you doing as far as cost per acquisition? Which a lot of companies aren't necessarily looking at, especially if they're more on the pure sales side and not on the operational minded side, they're thinking, okay, give me this many leads, how many, this many reps and I'll call them, but what is the cost going into that?

And then how do you mitigate that cost? So I think cost per acquisition cost per client cost per customer, depending on what acronym you want to use for that. But I think that one's important, especially as you have. Many different lead marketing channels, right? Whether it's Facebook or maybe it's data, or maybe it's, you know, webinars that you're putting on that, then it's producing leads.

Like how do you normalize that? And I think it's really important to focus on that key figure. A lot of people in sales focus on closing percentage, but it's very misleading because. Sometimes you're comparing apples with oranges. So I think that is really important. And in fact, one of the things I've developed is the thing called the closing effectiveness score, which helps load balance different campaigns and different costs.

And then looking at the closing percentage of each one. So I think that's one I think the second one, you know, like I said, which is using technology in not in a way. Upset salespeople, but to support salespeople because there's one job you need them to do. And I mentioned a few minutes ago, you need them to have conversations that it's it's.

You know this day and age with the technology that's available. If we haven't replaced salespeople with AI and robots by now, it's because it's too complicated and we still need a human to deal with another confused, scared, messy, human, and get them to make a decision. If that's the case as a revenue leader, your focus should be, how do I make it so that they're doing phone calls and conversations most of the time and not others.

There's also enough technology nowadays, where if they're doing lots of admin and lots of email and lots of data entry, you're doing it wrong. And so how do you fill them in so they can do what you still need them to do. So I think that's, that's the second one that I would say. And then I think that the third thing is, is again, meeting your prospective customers where they are with omni-channel like we were just talking about, but not relying on that, using that as a way to facilitate the CA the conversations and then, you know, moving people forward and meeting them where they want, instead of most organizations just feel.

Everyone should come to them. Kind of look at the apple store. You want a new apple. I that comes out a new iPhone. You have to stand in line. You have to wait there you go to them. They don't come to you. They don't care about you. They have the market share. They own it. Right. A lot of companies think they're apple, but they're not.

And you need to go to other people. You need to make it easy for your prospective customers to become engaged with you.

[00:28:19] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Yes. Got it. And I love that. That's great. Very good advice. I guess maybe let's talk a little about, about, you know, being a CEO and founder right now that you've kind of been in your own business for quite some time.

Now, are there things that you wish you knew earlier, or maybe you would do differently if you could go back and just do it all over again?

[00:28:39] Jason Cutter: You know, it's tough to say that I'm not a, I'm not a huge fan of the, if you could go back and tell yourself or go back and do something different game I think it's, it's really.

You know, the biggest thing is early on is truly understanding. I understood it pretty, pretty close to the beginning, but it was going to be an evolution, no matter what, I actually not too far into running my business and consulting and focusing on it. And one of the challenges I have a lot of companies feel this way is I focus on sales teams.

I can help any company out there in any industry, in any vertical. And now that I've consulted in, people come to me because most of it's relationships and referrals, I've helped a wide range of industries that I've never worked in, that I've never sold. And it's great, right there, super, super effective in what I do and how I can help them.

But in the beginning it was tough because I was trying to be everything to everybody. And it was about two years in when I realized, okay, here's really my niche. Here's really my focus. Let me just, you know, consolidate down, focus on one thing, which is that evolution. So I don't know if I would change it.

Cause I think that's the, the, the growth that I had to go through. If I were to stop the business and start all over with. Slate right now, it would be totally different because of what I've learned. I'd be like, okay, cool. We're going to focus. We're going to pick one niche, one industry go, and then the results will come much faster.

So that's, that's the big thing. I, but I wouldn't change it because then I wouldn't appreciate what I've got.

[00:30:07] Rosalyn Santa Elena: That's great. That's great. That's great. Well, so, so thank you so much for joining me. Jason, but as we wrap up and before I let you go, I always ask guests two things. One, what is the one thing about you that others would be surprised to know?

And to what is the one thing that you really want everyone to know about you? And I find that sometimes same thing. It can be the same thing, but sometimes they're different, right? So something that others would be surprised to learn about you and something that you really want everyone to.

[00:30:38] Jason Cutter: It's so funny. Cause I feel like when I tell people my background, most of that surprising both the shy, awkward kid. Cause most people, you know, if they're seeing me on stage, they can't imagine that the Marine biology degree in tagging sharks, I mean, you know, again, going back to that at one point in my life, I was standing as a 20 year old on a 21 foot boat surrounded by three 18 foot great white sharks.

And that was still, still better than dealing with people at that point in my life. Right. That was still the better, the better path in my life then people. And, and again, most people wouldn't believe that when I tell people I'm more of an introvert. They don't, you know, that kind of surprises people.

Yeah. And I think, you know, when it talks about the one thing that everyone, you know, to know about me, I think is that, that part, like one of the big things I've learned is all the challenges I've gone through the ups and downs, the different careers, the winding path for the longest time that embarrassed me in my own hat.

And like, I felt ashamed that I didn't go to school, get a degree, go get a job, do a thing, get married, have the right number of kids, have a house. I feel like I feel like air quotes, I've messed all that up, but I've learned a lot and it's made me who I am such that a, I can empathize with a whole wide range of people and I can talk to anybody about anything.

Cause I, you know, at one point in my life I was cleaning fish tanks, dentist office, and Chinese restaurants. So like I've done a ton of stuff and I think that's the biggest thing is that, you know, all of those things, well, everything I've been through helps me in, in life now and I wouldn't trade any of that.

[00:32:17] Rosalyn Santa Elena: Oh, I love that. I love that. Yeah. I don't think any of us have followed that kind of straight path. None of us who were feeling any, any sense of success. I think you have to go through that winding path and continue. I feel like I'm still, you know, trying to figure things out. So thank you so much for joining me today.

Jason, it's just been a pleasure to chat with you. I'm so grateful for your time and just learning from you.

This episode was digitally transcribed.

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